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06/28/1974MINUTES ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA FRIDAY, JUNE 28, 1974 - 12:15 P.M. Conference Room, City Hall Pledge Roll Call: Present: Councilmen John C. Brown, Myron Graham, T. Keith Gurnee, Jesse Norris and Mayor Kenneth E. Schwartz Absent: None Citv Staff: Present: J. H. Fitzpatrick, City Clerk; R. D. Miller, Admini- strative Officer; A. J. Shaw, Jr., City Attorney; E. L. Rodgers, Chief of Police; R. A. Paul, Water Department Director; Wayne Peterson, Assistant City Engineer; Robert Strong, Director of Planning Building Also Present: Jerry Smith and Ken Dawson, Penfield 8 Smith 1. R. A. Paul, Water Department Director, reviewed again for the City Council the bids received for SITE PREPARATION for the water tank on the Edna Saddle. Bids opened on May 30, 1974. He stated that the bids received were way over the estimate of the con- sultants and further an attempt by the City to negotiate with the lowest bidder, A. Madonna, to reduce the bid had proved fruitless. R. A. Paul then reviewed various alternatives to the tank site prepara- tion bid whether to continue with the present specifications or to change specifications and rebid. He also reviewed for the City Council time span necessary in the site preparation and tank erection in order to meet the November, 1974 date to lift the moratorium in the lower Hiauera - Los Osos Valley area and to have the full system in operation by March 1975. He felt that the decision that must be made is whether to award the bid now on hand or whether to reject all bids, redesign, and rebid a new project. He then presented alternates for Council consideration. A. Accept the present project, $585,000 with adjustments, B. Readvertise with minor adjustments at an estimated con- struction cost of $475,000 an- involving one month delay, C. Readvertise with a new concept for the tank site, estimated cost $405,000, but this might require a new environmental impact report which might delay it even further. "C" would include hauling away the spoil from the construction project. D. Start over again with no berm to protect the tank, spread the spoil as much as necessary on the site at an estimated cost of $515,000, but he was sure that a new environmental impact report would be needed due to the scarring of the spoil being spread on the site. City Council Minutes June 28, 1974 Page 2 Jerry Smith, Penfield and Smith, reviewed for the City Council the time required by them in order to get the plans and specifications ready for advertising if the Council went for Alternate B or C. R. A. Paul, Water Department Director, recommended that the City ' Council should go ahead with the bid already on hand from A. Madonna as he felt the timing and also the possible increase in cost due to the inflation of construction costs might make the project even more expensive than they now anticipate. Jerry Smith, Penfield and Smith, upon question, stated that the great difference in the previous bids estimated over actual bids received were caused by two major items: 1. Rampant inflation and 2. Due to the length of time of the contract there was little known about future labor cost and material cost, which caused the bidders to hedge their bets on the high side. He also reviewed for the City Council the financial effect on the City, the increased cost for readvertising, preparation of new plans and specifications, etc. He also reviewed the cost to the City Council for additional services such as construction supervision, testing, and the additional funds required for consulting services. Councilman Norris felt that in view of all the unknowns in savings, if the City decided to rebid the job and also the pressure on time, he felt the City should go ahead and accept the Madonna bid. Councilman Graham stated that he was in support of "B" and hoped that some saving could be achieved by the process even in view of the addi- tional engineering costs to get the project out. Councilman Brown stated he agreed with Norris' comments and would support "A ", awardina the bid to Madonna due to the unknowns in re- bidding, inflation, labor costs, and the high risk even including the additional engineering costs because of the time involved. Councilman Gurnee stated he would like to take whatever option would save the City money. But felt there were too many unknowns on cost at this time, and in the light of the timing involved he would support "A ", awarding the bid to Madonna Construction Company in' order to serve the citizens of San Luis Obispo as quickly as possible with adequate water. Mayor Schwartz agreed with the unknowns in "B" and with the inflation labor costs, etc. He felt possibly the City would be best served by awarding the bid to Madonna Construction Company and go ahead as already bid in Plan "A ". Councilman Gurnee stated that he was in support of the prop ooed motion provided that the City Council would instruct the staff to initiate studies to increase the water acreage and water hook -up fees for new developments in the Los Osos Valley - Lower Higuera Street area to try and recover some of the cost of the project in the Edna Saddle Tank Project. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Gurnee the City Council accepted the bid of Madonna Construction Company for alternate 1, $695,805.00 total. Motion carried, all ayes, Councilman Graham voting no. The City Council directed the City Clerk to notify A. Madonna of the award of the bid at this date. City Council Minutes, June 28, 1974 Page 3 2. Council consideration of the adoption of a resolution of intention to hold a public hearing on nuisance abatement at Tropicana Village, which involved a dumping of engine crank case oil down a drain pipe from the parking lot at 55 North Broad Street which led directly into the Old Garden Creek, which was a tributary of San Luis Creek and which caused scum and oil pollution along the area of Garden Creek. A.J. Shaw, City Attorney, reviewed for the City Council the steps that must be taken under the City ordinance to abate a nuisance and the calling of a public hearing. E.L. Rodgers, Police Chief, submitted a report of an investigation by the City Police Department dealing with the oil spill at 55 North Broad Street, Tropicana Village. Robert Strong, Planning Director, agreed with the investigation and report as presented by the Police Department and concurred with the recommendation to institute an abatement proceeding. Mr. Stuart, representing Tropicana Village, submitted a report to the City Council on activities taken by the owners at Tropicana Village to attempt to eliminate future possible oil spills in City creeks from this property. He stated that the property owners were doing all they could to supervise anti - pollution efforts by the residents of Tropicana Village. He stated they were trying to do all they could to cooperate and hoped that the City Council would not penalize the prop- erty owners for the action of one or two students who unthinkingly polluted the creeks of San Luis Obispo. On motion of Mavor Schwartz, seconded by Councilman Graham that, based on the evidence presented by the Police Chief, Planning Director, Councilman Gurnee, and Mr. Stuart, that this matter by the Council be continued to an unspecified date and that the City review Tropicana's present proposal to the Police Depart- ment for mitigation of conditions that precipitated this hearing, and that staff recommend rules to be set by the City Council which would apply these rules to similar uses in the City. Further, that the City Clerk was to write a letter to all student housing developments in the City indicating the Council's concern of oil spills in creeks and of their intention to take action against the prop- erty owners if these oil spills continued. Further, the City Clerk was asked to notify the Contractors' Association regarding contractors dumping construction materials in creeks which add to the pollution. Motion carried, all ayes, no noes, Councilman Norris absent. 3. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the follow- ing resolution was introduced. Resolution No. 2626, a resolution establishing salary ranges for employee classifications, assigning employees to classes and salary steps within said ranges, specifying methods of advancement and superseding previous salary resolutions in conflict. Passed and adopted on the following roll call vote: ' AYES: Councilmen Brown, Graham, Gurnee and Mayor Schwartz NOES: None ABSENT: Councilman Norris 4. The City Council adjourned to Executive Session. Mayor Schwartz suggested that the matter be continued for a progress report by Tropicana Village on steps being taken to eliminate creek pollution from their property, and further that the City staff look into standards to be placed in future use permits for student housing developments throughout the City. 2:05 P.M. Councilman Norris left the meeting. On motion of Mavor Schwartz, seconded by Councilman Graham that, based on the evidence presented by the Police Chief, Planning Director, Councilman Gurnee, and Mr. Stuart, that this matter by the Council be continued to an unspecified date and that the City review Tropicana's present proposal to the Police Depart- ment for mitigation of conditions that precipitated this hearing, and that staff recommend rules to be set by the City Council which would apply these rules to similar uses in the City. Further, that the City Clerk was to write a letter to all student housing developments in the City indicating the Council's concern of oil spills in creeks and of their intention to take action against the prop- erty owners if these oil spills continued. Further, the City Clerk was asked to notify the Contractors' Association regarding contractors dumping construction materials in creeks which add to the pollution. Motion carried, all ayes, no noes, Councilman Norris absent. 3. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the follow- ing resolution was introduced. Resolution No. 2626, a resolution establishing salary ranges for employee classifications, assigning employees to classes and salary steps within said ranges, specifying methods of advancement and superseding previous salary resolutions in conflict. Passed and adopted on the following roll call vote: ' AYES: Councilmen Brown, Graham, Gurnee and Mayor Schwartz NOES: None ABSENT: Councilman Norris 4. The City Council adjourned to Executive Session. City Council Minutes June 28, 1974 Page 4 5. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the meeting.adjourned.at 2:25 P.M. Motion carried, Councilman Norris-absent. 1 CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS_ SA14 LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA In the Matter of: Impasse Determination ) By the: ) SAN LUIS OBISPO POLICE ) OFFICERS' ASSOCIATION. ) Monday, June 17, 1974 7:30 o'clock p.m. To: CITY COUNCIL' OUNCIL'MEETING MONDAY, JUNE 17, 1974 - 7:30 P.M. ITEM NO. 3 EXHIBIT, "A" Reported by: Alma K. Ziegler, CSR COP'S PETRICK & PINA Official Cowl Reporters 320 COUNTY COURTHOUSE SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA 93401 543 -3078 544 -6352 ' 1 2 3 4 .5 6 .7 8= 9. 10 it 12, 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA In the Matter of:. ) Impasse• Determination ) SAN LUIS•OBISPO"POLICE ) OFFICERS ° ASSOCIATION. ) a . PRESENT: City-Council: The Honorable Kenneth E. Schwartz, Mayor Councilman John C. Brown Councilman Myron J. Graham Councilman Jesse Norris Councilman T. Keith Gurnee City Negotiators: Police Negotiator: Arthur J. Shaw, Jr., City Attorney Richard D. Miller, Administrative officer Jean H. Fitzpatrick, City Clerk Richard A. Carsel Attorney at Law PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporlers. 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 !4 5 6 7 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 z THE MAYOR: This is a public hearing on the request of the Police Officers' Association for past determination by the City Council on time and one half for overtime. -_I- believe it would be more important that we have the.City Attorney describe for everyone present what the meanie of the impasse is and what the nature of our hearing this evening`sfiould be. MR. SHAW:" Yes, Mr. Mayor; thank you. As the Council is aware, we have been holding sessions with the various employee associations, the Police Officers'-Association. we held several sessions and it became apparent that there was one issue which could not be resolved by our negotiations with them, and that was the question of paying time and a half to the policemen for work over forty hours a week. Therefore, in accordance with the conditions set out in the Resolution, known as the City's Employer- Employee Relations Resolution we had invoked, and the Police Officers' Association very specifically requested invitation of the impasse procedure set out in that resolution. Section 13 of the Resolution says: "Impasse procedures may be invoked only after the possibility of settlement by direct discussion has been exhausted." Both sides agreed that that possibility had been exhausted. Section 13 continues: "The impasse procedures are as follows: ,,(a) A determination by the City Council after a hearing on the merits of the dispute; PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543 -3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 3 or . "(b) Any other dispute resolving procedures to.Vhici the parties mutually agree, or which the City Council may order." Therefore, we have brought this to the City Council for its determination "after a hearing on the merits, unless the City. Council desires'. some other dispute resolvement procedure. THE MAYOR: Mr. Shaw, is it my understanding that the hearing has been.duly advertised as per our procedure and full notice has'been given to-all-parties involved? MR. SHAW: Yes; that is correct. a THE MAYOR: All right. Are there questions first from the Council, relative to the procedures involved here this evening? COUNCILMAN GRAHAM:. My only question is I'm going to direct this to our City Administrator. Do you have a copy or breakdown of the salary structures? This we would like to have I to be guided by. MR. MILLER: Yes, I.do.. The present salary for police) officers is $12,144.00 a year, and.the proposed salary would be $13,368.00. This is a top step for patrolmen after three year's service. In addition to this, he would be eligible for educational incentive if he qualifies. The sergeant now makes $13,560.00, and would go to $15,312.00. $17,088.00. Police lieutenant is now $15,096.00; would go to Police captain is now $17,304.00; would go to PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543 -3078 544 -6352 • 1 2. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 4 $19,536.00 a year. And Police Chief is now $19,752.00; would go to $21,720.00,'plus this 38 longevity pay. I,also`have some figures on the total expense for police.officers as far as the City is concerned. The patrolman, after,th'ree pears- service,,as I said, would make $13,368.00 under the; ,proposal. You would add retirement at 10.5888, $1,415.66; Workmen's.Compensation Insurance at 6.07 %, $811.00; Health :Insurance,'$191.00.'.,Life Insurance, $20.00. Proposed increase in life insurance, $20.00. uniform Allowance, '5168.00; a total of $15,993.00. And the above figures do not include overtime, nor do they take into consideration time off with pay for vacation, holidays, sick leave, personal leave and so on. COUNCILMAN'GRAHAM: My next question; being a person in business in the downtown area, I am.just curious, how do these figures compare with industry or with the university, with Cuesta, you know, salary structures? Do you have any information? MR. MILLER: That is a pretty broad question. Our primary comparison was with the sample cities. We looked at the cities of Santa Cruz, Monterey and Salinas to the north, and Santa Maria, Lompoc and Ventura to the south. We found particularly in some of our supervisory classes we were lagging a little bit behind, so the proposal is ten percent plus an extra half step for sergeant, for lieutenant and for captain. So in effect, you are talking about something like 12.88 for the ranks above patrolman. PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 5 THE MAYOR::- Mr. Graham, at the risk of interrupting your train of thought here, Mr. Shaw, it would seem to me it would,be appropkiate,'in that we are trying to determine I whether we can-break the impasse involved, would be to call on the representatives from the Policemen's Association, to present their case; obviously in favor of the time and a half. And then -allow the City's negotiating team to speak of the matter.of why'they feel that.it is not appropriate. MR. SHAW: Yes, Mr. Mayor, that would be a good procedure. THE MAYOR: If there is no objection to this procedure, I would think it would be appropriate at this time to call on either Mr. Richard Carsel, Counsel for the Policemen's Association, or Officer Martin, President of the Association, if they would like to be heard and present their case. MR. CARSEL: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. For the record, I am Richard Carsel, representing the San Luis Obispo Police Officers' Association. I have some data which we have accumulated on this issue, if I might present this to-the Council. There has been reference by Mr. Miller as to the salary structures as they currently exist, and as they would go if the City's position were employed. I point out to Council, the City has not selected survey cities. These are the cities the administrative team has said these are the ones we will compare the department to. Even under those cities we are less than three percent behind, and probably would continue to be under on the proposed.increa PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 6 If you.will note, Gentlemen, the first six agencies listed on the`,overtime data sheet which I have presented you are in fact the survey '.cities. Currently four pay time and a half to all sworn police officers who work in excess of forty hours a week. We have also looked to comparable employment within this county,.specifi.cally the. Sheriff's Department, California .. - . Men's Colony, the Cal- Poly.Security and the California Highway Patrol. All of them are receiving time and a half for work performed in excess of forty hours per week. We have this situation; the Federal Government, as the Council knows, made some amendment to the Fair Standards Act, which excluded sworn police and fire personnel from the mandatory time and a half provisions at forty hours. This is an unfortunate situation in the sense that the Fire Department, almost universally, works different hours, different kinds of shifts, and as I read that legislation, it was set up to protect firemen from being over exploited. It is almost universal in the State of California that police agencies operate on a forty hour week. We have this situation at the moment. Effective virtually immediately, all employees of this city will be receiving time and one half payment for hours worked over forty, with the exception of sworn police officers and firemen. The firemen's shifts are such that if they really do work overtime, based on their normal work week, then they will receive time and a half. So what we end up with is only the police officer, not the dispatcher, but only the city PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reposers 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8' 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 policemaw alone;.who will be deprived after forty hours. We feel the situation is inequitable at best. Even in all contracts made by this city with priva contractors, time'and a half is provided to private employees working on City business. We are in a business where we feel we:are discriminated against if we can't have time and a half over forty hours. -i_t'.is the trend and I am at a complete loss to understand why police officers should be discriminated against in that fashion. Thank you. THE MAYOR: Mr. Carsel, I will ask you a question to lead off. On your overtime data sheet on which you list ten agencies,. the first six being comparable cities, Item Numbers 7, 8, 9 and 10 are county agencies;.the Sheriff's Department, Cal Poly Security, California Men's Colony and the California Highway Patrol. Why is it that other municipal police departments are not listed? MR. CARSEL: Your Honor, I don't know what the outcome will be as far as localities, with respect to anything that happens after July 1st. I know that Grover City.and Morro Bay are watching what this Council does this evening. THE MAYOR: What is the situation at the present time? MR. CARSEL: It is my understanding none of the other municipal police departments presently receive overtime at the time and a half. rate. THE MAYOR: So the City of San Luis Obispo is not unique within the County of San Luis Obispo? MR. CARSEL: That is correct, but I point out to you that the calibre of your Police Department is such that this PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 i 2 3 4 5. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 City has historically compared this department with other more sophisticated are.as:., You are paying much higher salaries than the.smaller municipalities. You have a much better officer and much better Police Department. I have tried to give other .comparable employers in•terms`of quality and requirements of the job and the training they receive. THE MAYOR: Perhaps other members of the Council will have questions. Are there questions of Mr. Carsel at this moment? COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Repeat that one statement as far as the salaries are concerned, Mr. Carsel? MR. CARSEL: I am not sure which one you mean'. MR. GRAHAM: That the City of San Luis does pay a higher salary than that. MR. CARSEL: Than the other cities within this county. I think that is common knowledge. But also has perhaps five times the population of other cities in the county. THE MAYOR: Any other questions? Do you have one, IMr. Miller? MR. MILLER: I wanted to make a comment if I could. THE MAYOR: Thank you, Mr. Carsel. MR. MILLER: I didn't mean to interrupt him at all. THE MAYOR: If you want to make a comment, I am going to turn to you, Dick, as chairman of our negotiating team, and ask if you wish to make statements. MR. CARSEL: Perhaps I can wind this up in this fashion, perhaps it might be helpful. we have reached an impasse because your negotiating team represented to us that PETRICK & PINA 01liciai Court Reporters 543 -3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 .4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 9 they were.not authorized to negotiate the time and a half. We are not asking this Council to give us time and a half, regardless of any other aspect of negotiations. What we are asking is that'the negotiating team be authorized to deal in terms of the time 'and a-half after forty hours. MR. SHAW :. Mr. Mayor, if I might interrupt there? THE MAYOR: Mr. Shaw? MR. SHAW: I.don't believe that is the real reason we are before you. I. think the real reason was because no members of the negotiating team felt that time and a half was a proper payment. The Federal law which invoked this time and a half for overtime, for the first time, and your negotiating team, would ask that the Council make a decision on the time and a half. THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller? MR. MILLER: I would like to point out we have, and we have proposed some items.which would in some cases work out much better for the personnel, and in some cases for the City. For instance, on a court appearance or emergency call out, the City offers a four hour-minimum. Now in many cases, the court appearance is cancelled. The attorneys aren-'t prepared. The District Attorney .isn't prepared, or something of that nature. So if a police officer is there for five minutes, but we feel there is some value to the City and some inconvenience to the officer in having to get dressed and appear for the court appearance, we-feel that on the court appearances of short duration that there is not a need to'have a supervising officer standing around keeping track of the time. Normally PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 a four -hour minimum could cover most court appearances. Also, in connection with our negotiations, we have tentatively offered a.-'compromise to the straight time and.a half policy. We offered that if an officer has a legitimate need to stay beyond his work shift, we would pay him a minimum of one and a half hours at straight time, even though he is there for a half hour. So we think that in many cases our policies are liberal. The police personnel and negotiators have talked to us about the fact that they don't expect time and a half for a case where they fill in for an officer who is sick or on vacation, but looking at the trend over the years, we feel that if time and a half were granted for other types of overtime this year, that would be a logical request or demand the following fiscal year. THE MAYOR: 'All right. Questions of Council and of Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: Can I ask one more point? As Mr. Shaw points out in his memo to you, something like twenty percent of the city personnel, the uniformed police officers, are accumulating something like 508 of the overtime for the entire city, on a straight time basis, without the time and a half. THE MAYOR: Councilman Graham? COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: I don't mean to be speaking out here, not giving the opportunity to the others, but on this list here, the retirement, Workmen's Compensation, Health Insurance, are we. somewhat on a level with the other valuation communities? Are we somewhat on the same .level? PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-30 78 544 -6352 1 2 3- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 MR. MILLER: I would say we are above average on the retirement average compared to other communities. There is one other community as I recall in our survey group that has initiated the-28 at age fifty, with widow's continuance, but in return the city secured a three -year contract. COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: I understand the Police Association was offered the widow's continuance; is that right? MR. MILLER: Right. They were offered 8.6, and the widow's package similar to the Fire Department, with some unique items added to the police package that weren't offered to the other employees; fringe benefits. THE MAYOR: Councilman Brown? COUNCILMAN BROWN: None. THE MAYOR: Councilman Gurnee? COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Yes, I just have three questions. what is a typical work week, or what is considered the pay period, number of hours in a pay period for firemen in the City of San Luis Obispo? MR. MILLER: It has been sixty -four hours, and it will reduce to 60 hours, and this is the magic number as of January 1st for the policemen, too, as far as time and a half, overtime. The year after that, it drops to 58 hours. The year after that it drops to 56 hours, and the year after that it drops to 54 'hours or the national average, whichever is the lesser. COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Okay. And just for public I information, could you say why there is such a high total of hours for firemen? Is it just the nature of their employment? MR. MILLER: Part is sleeping and eating. PETRICK & PINA Ojticial Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 12 MR-- GURNEEi Police•work is forty hours a week work? MR: MILLER: Yes, we are having a little argument about that= a quarter hour, one way or the other. COUNCILMAN GURNEE: But a forty -hour work week is considered a normal period? MR. MILLER: Correct. COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Not including the overtime and the same with general employees, a forty -hour work week? MR. MILLER: Right. CONCILMAN,GUR1'7EE: And we have time and a half over- time for work beyond forty -hour work week for general employees MR. MILLER: As required this year, this time by the Federal Government. COUNCILMAN GURNEE: To me the issue seems very simple. We have the Federal Labor Standards Act requiring certain guidelines be followed by local governments. One applies particularly to not allowing employees -- other than firemen and policemen,must receive time and a half. And when applied here, where we have firemen working 64 hours in a week, spending much of their time nights and eating at the firehouse,. we have policemen who are normally employed for a forty -hour work week. I don't think, while the argument has been put forth by staff, that we should not try to work out in advance of the Fair Labor Standards Act which is supposed to take effect in 178, to require time and a half overtime. I believe that while this law does apply to us, I think it applies rather unequitably to both policemen and firemen, and I think as it applies in this area, there is a double standard. PETRICK & PINA Oilicial Court Reporter5 543 -3078 544 -6352 '1. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27.; 28 . 13 r As-far as I am concerned, I definitely believe the police should receive time and a half for any hours worked beyond the course of a normal work week, just as our general employees do. And to me, it is just as simple as that. If we try to compare the firemen and police, we are comparing apples to oranges, and that is simply inequitable to do it that way. THE MAYOR: Any other questions? Councilman Brown? COUNCILMAN BROWN: Mr. Mayor, a hypothetical; if the Council would authorize the negotiating team; the City's negotiating team to be able to offer the time and a half after forty hours, then it would seem to me.it is more of a comment to the question,that the other offers by the City and so forth should also be thrown into the pot. That is their hands should not be tied. The negotiating team should be able to work out the whole new scheme. MR. SHAW: Mr. Brown, if I might reply to that, all involved in the negotiations are in agreement that nothing is fixed as of yet. Everything is tentative at.the present time. COUNCILMAN BROWN: Thank you. THE MAYOR: Mr. Carsel? MR. CARSEL: Just for the record, Mr. Brown and members of the Council,.it would be our position the Police Officers' Association, if you.were to authorize the negotiating team to talk in terms of time and a half, that you would not be bound by previous offers. You would have to come up with something .you:,can..live with. THE MAYOR:' I think it might be appropriate at this ti PETRICK & PINA Officio( Court Reporters 543 -3018 544 -6352 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ., 27 28 14 .Mr. Carsel, do you have other points that you would like to make or do members of the Police Officers' negotiating team, do any of them wish to be heard? MR. CARSEL: I think we have one point, Your Honor; that is the City's negotiating tea m.has in fact come up with several alternative suggestions to overtime. 'As Mr. Miller said, they essentially would involve minimum guarantees, overtime for callback time. The police officer would prefer to be paid for the time he has actually worked and not paid for the time he hasn't worked. THE MAYOR: Do other members of the negotiating team have anything? MR. SHAW: In relation to that question, if a police officer were called to court,.appeared five minutes and told that the case was continued or dismissed, Mr. Carsel, how much overtime would he expect? MR. CARSEL: We would deal with that at the negotiating table. MR. SHAW: That is what I thought. THE MAYOR: I think the impasse, Mr. Carsel, is really on the matter of time and a half; isn't that a legitimate question? MR. CARSEL: We might decide it is fifteen minutes or a half hour, or a minimum of one hour, in that kind of context. I don't know.' It is certainly subject to negotiation. 'We have been negotiating that kind of thing for weeks. THE MAYOR: 'Thank you. Mr. Fitzpatrick? PETRICK & PINA Official Couit Reporters 543-3078 544-6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 MR. FITZPATRICK: Nothing. THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller, anything further? MR. MILLER: NO. THE MAYOR: Councilman Gurnee made a statement; do you wish to embellish on it? COUNCILMAN GURNEE: I made my statement. THE MAYOR: All right. Councilman Norris? COUNCILMAN NORRIS: on several occasions you indicated that you offered 8.68, plus widows, continuance; how much value does that have? Does that came out here this evening? MR. MILLER: At present we are at 10.5888 for fire and police, for the retirement. Under the new actuarial study, the rate would be 10.314 as I recall it; however, the State Retirement suggested we continue to pay the 10.5888 because of adverse disability experience throughout the state, so with the widows' continuance, your 13.672, you are talking about I for a combined fire and police department package. So depending on how you want to argue it, you either deduct the I 10.588 which makes it about 3.48 increase, or you deduct the I 3.18, something of that nature, and so you are talking about either 3.4 or 3.18 for the widows° continuance. COUNCILMAN NORRIS: Have you offered them in excess of all -- 13., including cash of 8.6,.plus? MR. MILLER: I think it would be something like 126 including. the 8.68 cash. 8.6 and 3.4, you could argue it would be 11.6.. COUNCILMAN' NORRIS: So you have offered them 11.6% in the way of mdnetary.increase, and hold the overtime at straight PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543=3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24' 25 26. 27 28 time at-a four -hour minimum for court appearances, et cetera? MR. MILLER: An hour and a half minimum guarantee at the straight time basis for continuation of the work day, and if it is authorized by their superior. COUNCILMAN NORRIS: well, if this is kind of a summation time, I might indicate that I am impressed with the salaries that are given to us here currently in effect, and the salary that they would be moved to, with the increases being offered. It sounds like that the salary of thirteen, fifteen, seventeen, nineteen, the twenty -one thousand dollars plus are in fact good salaries. it seems to me that this 12% increase is quite a boost. 16 And Councilman Graham asked about other agencies in the county. I clipped an article out of the paper. It says the Templeton teachers get 8% and San Luis Coastal teachers get eight and a half percent. So it looks like for this year we are offering all our employees in the city, including our Police Department, quite a cost of living increase in comparison with what some of the other people in our community are receiving. I am certainly in favor of upholding the law, and as I understand it, we have a Fair'Labors Standards Act in front of us which specifically says that the City shall pay -overtime for oiler 60-hours. So we are well within the law on the present`stand:..:I - feel that the bugs can be worked out of:.this thing if.we hold fast on the time and a half, because ;certainly the City .is represented with a good negotiating team, PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544-6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2i 22 23- 2,4 25 26 27 28 17 and I feel the Police Officers' Association is also. I picked up on the discussion where they said no other city in the county pays overtime, so we would really be kind of staying in line with our other neighboring cities, especially the City of Morro Bay and Grover City, that are watching our action here this evening. MR. MILLER: Could I correct that? The other cities in the county are paying overtimes,CTO times in cash, but-they are not paying time and a half. COUNCILMAN NORRIS: That is what I meant. I stand corrected, in time and a half for overtime. I picked up out of the discussion this evening that our police officers receive a higher salary than other cities in the county, not to mention we do give diem a four -ho minimum on court appearances,. and an hour and a half minimum on staying over their shift. I also picked up out of the discussion that we have 1, a very superior Police Department, one that we should be proud of, and I think that we should make note of that also. So, Mr. Mayor, I will stick with our present position of authorizing our negotiating team to hold fast on the time and a half for overtime. THE MAYOR: Councilman Brown? OFFICER-MARTIN: Mr. Mayor THE MAYOR':. '., Officer, we are in summation now, Mr.! Martin.. a 'COUNCILMAN BROWN: Mr. Mayor, I would suggest also that at the moment 'we' 'do not change our stand. PETRICK: & PINA '011 crgl Court Reporters r 543-3078 544-6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23' :24 25, 26 27, 28 18 THE MAYOR: Councilman Graham? COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Is this the time we are supposed to discuss this? THE MAYOR: Summarize. COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Summarize? Well, of course I think the feeling comes to myself in earlier conversation I felt that the City has been selective in forming their police force, and I think we have been rather fortunate in getting a calibre of people that we do have, and the fact that we pay a decent salary. As I mentioned here earlier, I feel that I was asking a question of what industry has had to do, as to what the Teachers' Association have had to do, as what we have had to do on the State•level, and Mr. Norris alluded to it, that they have actually had to face up to the cost of living standard which is centered around the figure of eight point something, but I mean it stuck around, they have stuck around that figure. Everybody's budgets are such that they have had to go to the bare bones-level and really see what they can do, and I can in business, I see inflation all around us, and to me this is an inflationary request. And I don't like to look at it that way, but I feel this is the way it is. The fact that we are givingat this point a flat ten percent, I feel is an • Adequate'increase.`.It is above, and we are trying to join in with the survs!V ciiies7aad trying to level off, upgrade our level of pay and all our benefits that actually we are getting. -So for 'that "reason I feel that we should actually stick with our guns...as ",-far as what we said in the beginning. a PETR'I'CK & PIN.A Oiiicial.�Coua Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2.1 22 23 2:4 25 26 27 28 19 THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller, I have a question to ask of When was overtime first started in the City of San Luis MR. MILLER:. I don't recall. It has been going.on for a long time. Do you recall, Chief? CHIEF RODGERS: Overtime? You mean straight time? MR. MILLER: Yes. You have been here longer than I. CHIEF RODGERS- It has been going on for about, twelve years I believe. MR. MILLER: There was a time I believe when for instance firemen who were called out for a fire got overtime because they had volunteers who were also getting paid for callouts. Then atone time some cities' counsel determined that fighting the fire was part of the firemen's job, so if he got called out on an emergency to fight a fire, there was no overtime, so it began to come back in. THE MAYOR: The question, I want to be more specific, has the City, in paying overtime, has it done so in dollars or CTO? MR. MILLER: In both. THE MAYOR: Have we done it in both for roughly that period of twelve years? MR. MILLER:` I would say so. THE MAYOR:! Mr. Miller, just as a kind of a broad type of.question, when a,new classification of employee is being considered by the City, how does one arrive at what a legitimate and fair beginning salary would be? MR. MILLER: Well, one of the factors of course is PETRICK- & PINA Y Official Corot Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 it 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20, 21' 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 20 the relationship to other jobs of similar duties, responsibilities and hazard in the City structure. And then we try to take some of our benchmark positions and compare those with our survey cities to establish a basic level; jobs that are easily compared, like police officer, fireman, building inspector, secretary, that type of thing. Then once you peg your basic framework, then you fit your internal structure around it and you establish your relationship within the City, one job to another. THE MAYOR: Are these salaries in any way determined, based on the number of hours that may be required to carry out the duties of that particular job? MR. MILLER: I think if you take a look at a whole lot of things, including the insurance packages, the type of retirement system, the holidays, vacations, things like the guaranteed minimum for call outs, it is a combination. I think the League of California Cities are pushing,) and I believe Governor Reagan is also for a total compensation approach where every item is figured into the'pay package. THE MAYOR: Let's harken back beyond the twelve years that the,Chief spoke of. In establishing relative pay scales before :overtime was,paid,.by the City, how did one establish the relative'rank'of.pay that one type of employee got over another type of employee? Did it in any way have to do with the amount of time they were expected to put in? MR. MILLER: I think that as time goes on, you tend to compare with other cities on. working conditions, as well as salaries, and to some extent you take these into PETRICK & PINA Official Co«rl Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 21 consideration. But I think what most people are concerned about, if the working conditions are within reason, reasonably competent, is the dollars that they get to take home. THE MAYOR: Let me make a wider differentiation. We are talking about administrative management type of employees for which the forty -hour week doesn't usually apply. I haven't noted it to apply,-anyhow. There is a differentiation made in the pay scale, is there not? MR. MILLER: That's true. THE MAYOR: Is that in any way affected by the number of hours that one might put in, in that type of job? MR. MILLER: If you take an executive or management type position and divide the number of hours the person might usually work, you might get something comparable to somebody in a lower position, that is true, and with a higher tax bite. THE 14AYOR: Well, my observation here is that obviously what we are.talking about.is money. -And on the City side, there is a tendency to be frugal with it, and on the side of the employees, obviously the best package that can be put together for the:police services is understandable, and I think that the'entire, package has to be considered relative to the consideration of. -this element, for it seems to me that initially we- -began at a certain.benchmark that puts salaries relative to each other by the type'of duty; whether it is hazard, whether it requires more hours, and over a period of time..pressures'mount, usually from the employees' side, and I am -appreciative of',-this, be an employee, myself, that additional benefits are desired, and they are added and they PETRICK & 'PI.NA Ojjicial Coqrl Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21, 22 23 24 25 27 28 22 added to the point that I think the number of hours that go along with the job sometimes is lost sight of, and I would daresay that the salaries established for police officers relative to the scale established for other employees of the City at the beginning had not only the comparison to the hazards involved in the position, but also with the amount of time expected to carry out the job of police officer. To this extent, I would suspect if we were to start over again, the net salary of a police officer would be something less than it presently is. To this extent, I think that the package as a total, that the City has offered to its various employees' associations is a reasonable one, and I thi that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, with the Fair Labor Practices Act, of which the various police and firemen associations have lobbied to the higher levels of government is working for, and it has the roll back from 160 to 158, to 156., to 154, before mandatory time and a half will be required. -I .therefore feel that the 109 package relative to .the packages-that'. are being offered to other employee groups within the county; and within the State, is a fair one. I wou say if we were to authorize the negotiating team to open up the time and a'half• #-and all other things being equal, I would not agree to a settlement of 109. It would have to be less. I think under the circumstances, the effort that has -been made by"the City to'recognize the occasional overtime required by court appearances and by the need to stay and fill out a report, and the minimum time periods that have been PETRICK & PINA Official Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 • I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 26 '21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 23 established are maybe in some instances not fully compensatory, I think go a long way in approaching the time and a half if the study would shoo they were done. So to summarize, I think that taking all of these points into consideration and not appreciating fully the argument of the Police Officers' Association, rather than to reopen the negotiations for themselves, that I prefer to stick' the agreement reached by the negotiating team for the City. All right. What is the pleasure of the Council on the impasse item? COUNCILMAN GURNEE: I would move to direct the staff to negotiate with respect to issue time and a half overtime after a forty -hour work week. THE MAYOR: Is there a second to Mr. Gurnee's motion? That motion dies.for a lack of a second. Is there another motion? MR. GRAHAM: I would move that we accept the negotiating team's go -ahead to negotiate on the level that they have been of the 10 %, with no time and a half, except the conditions; that `are Federally handed down, such as January ist,. I believe it ' 's . y. •.•MR..MILLER:' Over 60 hours. •COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Over 60 hours. THE MAYOR: Is there a second? -COUNCILMAN BROWN: S second that. THE MAYOR: The motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? All right. May we have a roll call, please? PETRICK & PINA 01liciul Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352 24 MR. FITZPATRICK: Mr. Graham? COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Aye. .MR. FITZPATRICK: Mr. Brown? COUNCILMAN BROWN: Aye. MR. FITZPATRICK: Mr. Gurnee? COUNCILMAN GURNEE: No. MR. FITZPATRICK: Mr. Norris? COUNCILMAN NORRIS: Aye. MR. FITZPATRICK: Mayor Schwartz? THE MAYOR.: Aye.. I know this is going to be disappointing for some, but this will be the position of Council at this time. MR. CARSEL: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I would like to thank you and the Council. We will go back to the Police Association and be in contact with the negotiating team. Thank you for your consideration. (This matter concluded at 8:20 o'clock p.m.) Ir PETRICK & PINA oyicial Court Reporters 543-3078 544 -6352