HomeMy WebLinkAbout06/28/1974MINUTES
ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL
CITY OF SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA
FRIDAY, JUNE 28, 1974 - 12:15 P.M.
Conference Room, City Hall
Pledge
Roll Call:
Present: Councilmen John C. Brown, Myron Graham, T. Keith
Gurnee, Jesse Norris and Mayor Kenneth E. Schwartz
Absent: None
Citv Staff:
Present: J. H. Fitzpatrick, City Clerk; R. D. Miller, Admini-
strative Officer; A. J. Shaw, Jr., City Attorney;
E. L. Rodgers, Chief of Police; R. A. Paul, Water
Department Director; Wayne Peterson, Assistant City
Engineer; Robert Strong, Director of Planning
Building
Also Present: Jerry Smith and Ken Dawson, Penfield 8 Smith
1. R. A. Paul, Water Department Director, reviewed again for the
City Council the bids received for SITE PREPARATION for the water tank
on the Edna Saddle. Bids opened on May 30, 1974.
He stated that the bids received were way over the estimate of the con-
sultants and further an attempt by the City to negotiate with the lowest
bidder, A. Madonna, to reduce the bid had proved fruitless.
R. A. Paul then reviewed various alternatives to the tank site prepara-
tion bid whether to continue with the present specifications or to change
specifications and rebid. He also reviewed for the City Council time
span necessary in the site preparation and tank erection in order to
meet the November, 1974 date to lift the moratorium in the lower Hiauera -
Los Osos Valley area and to have the full system in operation by March
1975. He felt that the decision that must be made is whether to award
the bid now on hand or whether to reject all bids, redesign, and rebid
a new project.
He then presented alternates for Council consideration.
A. Accept the present project, $585,000 with adjustments,
B. Readvertise with minor adjustments at an estimated con-
struction cost of $475,000 an- involving one month delay,
C. Readvertise with a new concept for the tank site, estimated
cost $405,000, but this might require a new environmental
impact report which might delay it even further. "C"
would include hauling away the spoil from the construction
project.
D. Start over again with no berm to protect the tank, spread
the spoil as much as necessary on the site at an estimated
cost of $515,000, but he was sure that a new environmental
impact report would be needed due to the scarring of the
spoil being spread on the site.
City Council Minutes
June 28, 1974
Page 2
Jerry Smith, Penfield and Smith, reviewed for the City Council the
time required by them in order to get the plans and specifications
ready for advertising if the Council went for Alternate B or C.
R. A. Paul, Water Department Director, recommended that the City '
Council should go ahead with the bid already on hand from A. Madonna
as he felt the timing and also the possible increase in cost due to
the inflation of construction costs might make the project even more
expensive than they now anticipate.
Jerry Smith, Penfield and Smith, upon question, stated that the great
difference in the previous bids estimated over actual bids received
were caused by two major items:
1. Rampant inflation and
2. Due to the length of time of the contract there was
little known about future labor cost and material cost,
which caused the bidders to hedge their bets on the
high side.
He also reviewed for the City Council the financial effect on the City,
the increased cost for readvertising, preparation of new plans and
specifications, etc. He also reviewed the cost to the City Council for
additional services such as construction supervision, testing, and the
additional funds required for consulting services.
Councilman Norris felt that in view of all the unknowns in savings,
if the City decided to rebid the job and also the pressure on time,
he felt the City should go ahead and accept the Madonna bid.
Councilman Graham stated that he was in support of "B" and hoped that
some saving could be achieved by the process even in view of the addi-
tional engineering costs to get the project out.
Councilman Brown stated he agreed with Norris' comments and would
support "A ", awardina the bid to Madonna due to the unknowns in re-
bidding, inflation, labor costs, and the high risk even including the
additional engineering costs because of the time involved.
Councilman Gurnee stated he would like to take whatever option would
save the City money. But felt there were too many unknowns on cost at
this time, and in the light of the timing involved he would support "A ",
awarding the bid to Madonna Construction Company in' order to serve the
citizens of San Luis Obispo as quickly as possible with adequate water.
Mayor Schwartz agreed with the unknowns in "B" and with the inflation
labor costs, etc. He felt possibly the City would be best served by
awarding the bid to Madonna Construction Company and go ahead as already
bid in Plan "A ".
Councilman Gurnee stated that he was
in support of the prop ooed motion
provided that the City
Council would
instruct the staff to initiate
studies to increase
the
water acreage
and water hook -up fees for new
developments in the Los Osos Valley - Lower Higuera Street area to try
and recover some of the cost of the project in the Edna Saddle Tank
Project.
On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Gurnee the City
Council accepted the bid of Madonna Construction Company for alternate 1,
$695,805.00 total. Motion carried, all ayes, Councilman Graham voting no.
The City Council directed the City Clerk to notify A. Madonna of the
award of the bid at this date.
City Council Minutes,
June 28, 1974
Page 3
2. Council consideration of the adoption of a resolution of intention
to hold a public hearing on nuisance abatement at Tropicana Village, which
involved a dumping of engine crank case oil down a drain pipe from the parking
lot at 55 North Broad Street which led directly into the Old Garden Creek,
which was a tributary of San Luis Creek and which caused scum and oil pollution
along the area of Garden Creek.
A.J. Shaw, City Attorney, reviewed for the City Council the steps that must be
taken under the City ordinance to abate a nuisance and the calling of a public
hearing.
E.L. Rodgers, Police Chief, submitted a report of an investigation by the City
Police Department dealing with the oil spill at 55 North Broad Street, Tropicana
Village.
Robert Strong, Planning Director, agreed with the investigation and report as
presented by the Police Department and concurred with the recommendation to
institute an abatement proceeding.
Mr. Stuart, representing Tropicana Village, submitted a report to the City Council
on activities taken by the owners at Tropicana Village to attempt to eliminate
future possible oil spills in City creeks from this property. He stated that the
property owners were doing all they could to supervise anti - pollution efforts by
the residents of Tropicana Village. He stated they were trying to do all they
could to cooperate and hoped that the City Council would not penalize the prop-
erty owners for the action of one or two students who unthinkingly polluted the
creeks of San Luis Obispo.
On motion of Mavor Schwartz, seconded by Councilman Graham that, based on the
evidence presented by the Police Chief, Planning Director, Councilman Gurnee,
and Mr. Stuart, that this matter by the Council be continued to an unspecified
date and that the City review Tropicana's present proposal to the Police Depart-
ment for mitigation of conditions that precipitated this hearing, and that staff
recommend rules to be set by the City Council which would apply these rules to
similar uses in the City. Further, that the City Clerk was to write a letter
to all student housing developments in the City indicating the Council's concern
of oil spills in creeks and of their intention to take action against the prop-
erty owners if these oil spills continued. Further, the City Clerk was asked
to notify the Contractors' Association regarding contractors dumping construction
materials in creeks which add to the pollution. Motion carried, all ayes, no
noes, Councilman Norris absent.
3. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the follow-
ing resolution was introduced. Resolution No. 2626, a resolution establishing
salary ranges for employee classifications, assigning employees to classes and
salary steps within said ranges, specifying methods of advancement and superseding
previous salary resolutions in conflict.
Passed and adopted on the following roll call vote:
' AYES: Councilmen Brown, Graham, Gurnee and Mayor Schwartz
NOES: None
ABSENT: Councilman Norris
4. The City Council adjourned to Executive Session.
Mayor Schwartz suggested that the matter be continued for a progress report by
Tropicana
Village on steps being taken to eliminate
creek pollution from their
property,
and further that the City staff look into
standards to be placed in
future use
permits for student housing developments
throughout the City.
2:05 P.M.
Councilman Norris left the meeting.
On motion of Mavor Schwartz, seconded by Councilman Graham that, based on the
evidence presented by the Police Chief, Planning Director, Councilman Gurnee,
and Mr. Stuart, that this matter by the Council be continued to an unspecified
date and that the City review Tropicana's present proposal to the Police Depart-
ment for mitigation of conditions that precipitated this hearing, and that staff
recommend rules to be set by the City Council which would apply these rules to
similar uses in the City. Further, that the City Clerk was to write a letter
to all student housing developments in the City indicating the Council's concern
of oil spills in creeks and of their intention to take action against the prop-
erty owners if these oil spills continued. Further, the City Clerk was asked
to notify the Contractors' Association regarding contractors dumping construction
materials in creeks which add to the pollution. Motion carried, all ayes, no
noes, Councilman Norris absent.
3. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the follow-
ing resolution was introduced. Resolution No. 2626, a resolution establishing
salary ranges for employee classifications, assigning employees to classes and
salary steps within said ranges, specifying methods of advancement and superseding
previous salary resolutions in conflict.
Passed and adopted on the following roll call vote:
' AYES: Councilmen Brown, Graham, Gurnee and Mayor Schwartz
NOES: None
ABSENT: Councilman Norris
4. The City Council adjourned to Executive Session.
City Council Minutes
June 28, 1974
Page 4
5. On motion of Councilman Brown, seconded by Councilman Graham the
meeting.adjourned.at 2:25 P.M. Motion carried, Councilman Norris-absent.
1
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS_
SA14 LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA
In the Matter of:
Impasse Determination )
By the: )
SAN LUIS OBISPO POLICE )
OFFICERS' ASSOCIATION. )
Monday, June 17, 1974
7:30 o'clock p.m.
To: CITY COUNCIL'
OUNCIL'MEETING
MONDAY, JUNE 17, 1974 - 7:30 P.M.
ITEM NO. 3
EXHIBIT, "A"
Reported by:
Alma K. Ziegler, CSR
COP'S
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SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA 93401
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CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA
In the Matter of:. )
Impasse• Determination )
SAN LUIS•OBISPO"POLICE )
OFFICERS ° ASSOCIATION. )
a .
PRESENT:
City-Council: The Honorable Kenneth E. Schwartz,
Mayor
Councilman John C. Brown
Councilman Myron J. Graham
Councilman Jesse Norris
Councilman T. Keith Gurnee
City Negotiators:
Police Negotiator:
Arthur J. Shaw, Jr.,
City Attorney
Richard D. Miller,
Administrative officer
Jean H. Fitzpatrick,
City Clerk
Richard A. Carsel
Attorney at Law
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THE MAYOR: This is a public hearing on the request of
the Police Officers' Association for past determination by the
City Council on time and one half for overtime.
-_I- believe it would be more important that we have
the.City Attorney describe for everyone present what the meanie
of the impasse is and what the nature of our hearing this
evening`sfiould be.
MR. SHAW:" Yes, Mr. Mayor; thank you.
As the Council is aware, we have been holding
sessions with the various employee associations, the Police
Officers'-Association. we held several sessions and it became
apparent that there was one issue which could not be resolved
by our negotiations with them, and that was the question of
paying time and a half to the policemen for work over forty
hours a week. Therefore, in accordance with the conditions
set out in the Resolution, known as the City's Employer-
Employee Relations Resolution we had invoked, and the Police
Officers' Association very specifically requested invitation
of the impasse procedure set out in that resolution.
Section 13 of the Resolution says:
"Impasse procedures may be invoked only after
the possibility of settlement by direct discussion
has been exhausted."
Both sides agreed that that possibility had been
exhausted. Section 13 continues:
"The impasse procedures are as follows:
,,(a) A determination by the City Council
after a hearing on the merits of the dispute;
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or .
"(b) Any other dispute resolving procedures
to.Vhici the parties mutually agree, or which
the City Council may order."
Therefore, we have brought this to the City Council
for its determination "after a hearing on the merits, unless the
City. Council
desires'. some other dispute resolvement procedure.
THE MAYOR: Mr. Shaw, is it my understanding that the
hearing has been.duly advertised as per our procedure and full
notice has'been given to-all-parties involved?
MR. SHAW: Yes; that is correct.
a
THE MAYOR: All right. Are there questions first
from the Council, relative to the procedures involved here
this evening?
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM:. My only question is I'm going to
direct this to our City Administrator. Do you have a copy or
breakdown of the salary structures? This we would like to have
I
to be guided by.
MR. MILLER: Yes, I.do.. The present salary for police)
officers is $12,144.00 a year, and.the proposed salary would
be $13,368.00. This is a top step for patrolmen after three
year's service. In addition to this, he would be eligible for
educational incentive if he qualifies.
The sergeant now makes $13,560.00, and would go to
$15,312.00.
$17,088.00.
Police lieutenant is now $15,096.00; would go to
Police captain is now $17,304.00; would go to
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$19,536.00 a year.
And Police Chief is now $19,752.00; would go to
$21,720.00,'plus this 38 longevity pay.
I,also`have some figures on the total expense for
police.officers as far as the City is concerned. The patrolman,
after,th'ree pears- service,,as I said, would make $13,368.00
under the; ,proposal. You would add retirement at 10.5888,
$1,415.66; Workmen's.Compensation Insurance at 6.07 %, $811.00;
Health :Insurance,'$191.00.'.,Life Insurance, $20.00. Proposed
increase in life insurance, $20.00. uniform Allowance,
'5168.00; a total of $15,993.00. And the above figures do not
include overtime, nor do they take into consideration time off
with pay for vacation, holidays, sick leave, personal leave and
so on.
COUNCILMAN'GRAHAM: My next question; being a person
in business in the downtown area, I am.just curious, how do
these figures compare with industry or with the university,
with Cuesta, you know, salary structures? Do you have any
information?
MR. MILLER: That is a pretty broad question. Our
primary comparison was with the sample cities. We looked at
the cities of Santa Cruz, Monterey and Salinas to the north,
and Santa Maria, Lompoc and Ventura to the south.
We found particularly in some of our supervisory
classes we were lagging a little bit behind, so the proposal
is ten percent plus an extra half step for sergeant, for
lieutenant and for captain. So in effect, you are talking
about something like 12.88 for the ranks above patrolman.
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THE MAYOR::- Mr. Graham, at the risk of interrupting
your train of thought here, Mr. Shaw, it would seem to me it
would,be appropkiate,'in that we are trying to determine
I whether we can-break the impasse involved, would be to call on
the representatives from the Policemen's Association, to
present their case; obviously in favor of the time and a half.
And then -allow the City's negotiating team to speak of the
matter.of why'they feel that.it is not appropriate.
MR. SHAW: Yes, Mr. Mayor, that would be a good
procedure.
THE MAYOR: If there is no objection to this procedure,
I would think it would be appropriate at this time to call on
either Mr. Richard Carsel, Counsel for the Policemen's
Association, or Officer Martin, President of the Association,
if they would like to be heard and present their case.
MR. CARSEL: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. For the record,
I am Richard Carsel, representing the San Luis Obispo Police
Officers' Association.
I have some data which we have accumulated on this
issue, if I might present this to-the Council.
There has been reference by Mr. Miller as to the
salary structures as they currently exist, and as they would
go if the City's position were employed.
I point out to Council, the City has not selected
survey cities. These are the cities the administrative team
has said these are the ones we will compare the department to.
Even under those cities we are less than three percent behind,
and probably would continue to be under on the proposed.increa
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If you.will note, Gentlemen, the first six agencies
listed on the`,overtime data sheet which I have presented you
are in fact the survey '.cities. Currently four pay time and a
half to all sworn police officers who work in excess of forty
hours a week.
We have also looked to comparable employment within
this county,.specifi.cally the. Sheriff's Department, California
.. - .
Men's Colony, the Cal- Poly.Security and the California Highway
Patrol. All of them are receiving time and a half for work
performed in excess of forty hours per week.
We have this situation; the Federal Government, as
the Council knows, made some amendment to the Fair Standards
Act, which excluded sworn police and fire personnel from the
mandatory time and a half provisions at forty hours. This is
an unfortunate situation in the sense that the Fire Department,
almost universally, works different hours, different kinds of
shifts, and as I read that legislation, it was set up to
protect firemen from being over exploited. It is almost
universal in the State of California that police agencies
operate on a forty hour week.
We have this situation at the moment. Effective
virtually immediately, all employees of this city will be
receiving time and one half payment for hours worked over
forty, with the exception of sworn police officers and
firemen. The firemen's shifts are such that if they really do
work overtime, based on their normal work week, then they will
receive time and a half. So what we end up with is only the
police officer, not the dispatcher, but only the city
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policemaw alone;.who will be deprived after forty hours. We
feel the situation is inequitable at best.
Even in all contracts made by this city with priva
contractors, time'and a half is provided to private employees
working on City business. We are in a business where we feel
we:are discriminated against if we can't have time and a half
over forty hours. -i_t'.is the trend and I am at a complete loss
to understand why police officers should be discriminated
against in that fashion. Thank you.
THE MAYOR: Mr. Carsel, I will ask you a question to
lead off. On your overtime data sheet on which you list ten
agencies,. the first six being comparable cities, Item Numbers
7, 8, 9 and 10 are county agencies;.the Sheriff's Department,
Cal Poly Security, California Men's Colony and the California
Highway Patrol. Why is it that other municipal police
departments are not listed?
MR. CARSEL: Your Honor, I don't know what the outcome
will be as far as localities, with respect to anything that
happens after July 1st. I know that Grover City.and Morro Bay
are watching what this Council does this evening.
THE MAYOR: What is the situation at the present time?
MR. CARSEL: It is my understanding none of the other
municipal police departments presently receive overtime at the
time and a half. rate.
THE MAYOR: So the City of San Luis Obispo is not
unique within the County of San Luis Obispo?
MR. CARSEL: That is correct, but I point out to you
that the calibre of your Police Department is such that this
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City has historically compared this department with other more
sophisticated are.as:., You are paying much higher salaries than
the.smaller municipalities. You have a much better officer and
much better Police Department. I have tried to give other
.comparable employers in•terms`of quality and requirements of
the job and the training they receive.
THE MAYOR: Perhaps other members of the Council will
have questions. Are there questions of Mr. Carsel at this
moment?
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Repeat that one statement as far
as the salaries are concerned, Mr. Carsel?
MR. CARSEL: I am not sure which one you mean'.
MR. GRAHAM: That the City of San Luis does pay a
higher salary than that.
MR. CARSEL: Than the other cities within this county.
I think that is common knowledge. But also has perhaps five
times the population of other cities in the county.
THE MAYOR: Any other questions? Do you have one,
IMr. Miller?
MR. MILLER: I wanted to make a comment if I could.
THE MAYOR: Thank you, Mr. Carsel.
MR. MILLER: I didn't mean to interrupt him at all.
THE MAYOR: If you want to make a comment, I am going
to turn to you, Dick, as chairman of our negotiating team, and
ask if you wish to make statements.
MR. CARSEL: Perhaps I can wind this up in this
fashion, perhaps it might be helpful. we have reached an
impasse because your negotiating team represented to us that
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they were.not authorized to negotiate the time and a half. We
are not asking this Council to give us time and a half,
regardless of any other aspect of negotiations. What we are
asking is that'the negotiating team be authorized to deal in
terms of the time 'and a-half after forty hours.
MR. SHAW :. Mr. Mayor, if I might interrupt there?
THE MAYOR: Mr. Shaw?
MR. SHAW: I.don't believe that is the real reason we
are before you. I. think the real reason was because no members
of the negotiating team felt that time and a half was a proper
payment. The Federal law which invoked this time and a half
for overtime, for the first time, and your negotiating team,
would ask that the Council make a decision on the time and a
half.
THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller?
MR. MILLER: I would like to point out we have, and
we have proposed some items.which would in some cases work out
much better for the personnel, and in some cases for the City.
For instance, on a court appearance or emergency call out, the
City offers a four hour-minimum. Now in many cases, the court
appearance is cancelled. The attorneys aren-'t prepared. The
District Attorney .isn't prepared, or something of that nature.
So if a police officer is there for five minutes, but we feel
there is some value to the City and some inconvenience to the
officer in having to get dressed and appear for the court
appearance, we-feel that on the court appearances of short
duration that there is not a need to'have a supervising
officer standing around keeping track of the time. Normally
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a four -hour minimum could cover most court appearances.
Also, in connection with our negotiations, we have
tentatively offered a.-'compromise to the straight time and.a half
policy. We offered that if an officer has a legitimate need
to stay beyond his work shift, we would pay him a minimum of
one and a half hours at straight time, even though he is there
for a half hour.
So we think that in many cases our policies are
liberal. The police personnel and negotiators have talked to
us about the fact that they don't expect time and a half for a
case where they fill in for an officer who is sick or on
vacation, but looking at the trend over the years, we feel that
if time and a half were granted for other types of overtime
this year, that would be a logical request or demand the
following fiscal year.
THE MAYOR: 'All right. Questions of Council and
of Mr. Miller.
MR. MILLER: Can I ask one more point? As Mr. Shaw
points out in his memo to you, something like twenty percent
of the city personnel, the uniformed police officers, are
accumulating something like 508 of the overtime for the entire
city, on a straight time basis, without the time and a half.
THE MAYOR: Councilman Graham?
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: I don't mean to be speaking out
here, not giving the opportunity to the others, but on this
list here, the retirement, Workmen's Compensation, Health
Insurance, are we. somewhat on a level with the other valuation
communities? Are we somewhat on the same .level?
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MR. MILLER: I would say we are above average on the
retirement average compared to other communities. There is
one other community as I recall in our survey group that has
initiated the-28 at age fifty, with widow's continuance, but
in return the city secured a three -year contract.
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: I understand the Police
Association was offered the widow's continuance; is that right?
MR. MILLER: Right. They were offered 8.6, and the
widow's package similar to the Fire Department, with some
unique items added to the police package that weren't offered
to the other employees; fringe benefits.
THE MAYOR: Councilman Brown?
COUNCILMAN BROWN: None.
THE MAYOR: Councilman Gurnee?
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Yes, I just have three questions.
what is a typical work week, or what is considered the pay
period, number of hours in a pay period for firemen in the
City of San Luis Obispo?
MR. MILLER: It has been sixty -four hours, and it will
reduce to 60 hours, and this is the magic number as of January
1st for the policemen, too, as far as time and a half, overtime.
The year after that, it drops to 58 hours. The year after that
it drops to 56 hours, and the year after that it drops to 54
'hours or the national average, whichever is the lesser.
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Okay. And just for public
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information, could you say why there is such a high total of
hours for firemen? Is it just the nature of their employment?
MR. MILLER: Part is sleeping and eating.
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MR-- GURNEEi Police•work is forty hours a week work?
MR: MILLER: Yes, we are having a little argument
about that= a quarter hour, one way or the other.
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: But a forty -hour work week is
considered a normal period?
MR. MILLER: Correct.
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: Not including the overtime and
the same with general employees, a forty -hour work week?
MR. MILLER: Right.
CONCILMAN,GUR1'7EE: And we have time and a half over-
time for work beyond forty -hour work week for general employees
MR. MILLER: As required this year, this time by the
Federal Government.
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: To me the issue seems very simple.
We have the Federal Labor Standards Act requiring certain
guidelines be followed by local governments. One applies
particularly to not allowing employees -- other than firemen
and policemen,must receive time and a half. And when applied
here, where we have firemen working 64 hours in a week,
spending much of their time nights and eating at the firehouse,.
we have policemen who are normally employed for a forty -hour
work week. I don't think, while the argument has been put
forth by staff, that we should not try to work out in advance
of the Fair Labor Standards Act which is supposed to take
effect in 178, to require time and a half overtime. I believe
that while this law does apply to us, I think it applies rather
unequitably to both policemen and firemen, and I think as it
applies in this area, there is a double standard.
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r As-far as I am concerned, I definitely believe the
police should receive time and a half for any hours worked
beyond the course of a normal work week, just as our general
employees do. And to me, it is just as simple as that. If
we try to compare the firemen and police, we are comparing
apples to oranges, and that is simply inequitable to do it
that way.
THE MAYOR: Any other questions? Councilman Brown?
COUNCILMAN BROWN: Mr. Mayor, a hypothetical; if the
Council would authorize the negotiating team; the City's
negotiating team to be able to offer the time and a half after
forty hours, then it would seem to me.it is more of a comment
to the question,that the other offers by the City and so forth
should also be thrown into the pot. That is their hands should
not be tied. The negotiating team should be able to work out
the whole new scheme.
MR. SHAW: Mr. Brown, if I might reply to that, all
involved in the negotiations are in agreement that nothing is
fixed as of yet. Everything is tentative at.the present time.
COUNCILMAN BROWN: Thank you.
THE MAYOR: Mr. Carsel?
MR. CARSEL: Just for the record, Mr. Brown and
members of the Council,.it would be our position the Police
Officers' Association, if you.were to authorize the negotiating
team to talk in terms of time and a half, that you would not
be bound by previous offers. You would have to come up with
something .you:,can..live with.
THE MAYOR:' I think it might be appropriate at this ti
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.Mr. Carsel, do you have other points that you would like to
make or do members of the Police Officers' negotiating team,
do any of them wish to be heard?
MR. CARSEL: I think we have one point, Your Honor;
that is the City's negotiating tea m.has in fact come up with
several alternative suggestions to overtime. 'As Mr. Miller
said, they essentially would involve minimum guarantees,
overtime for callback time. The police officer would prefer
to be paid for the time he has actually worked and not paid
for the time he hasn't worked.
THE MAYOR: Do other members of the negotiating team
have anything?
MR. SHAW: In relation to that question, if a police
officer were called to court,.appeared five minutes and told
that the case was continued or dismissed, Mr. Carsel, how much
overtime would he expect?
MR. CARSEL: We would deal with that at the
negotiating table.
MR. SHAW: That is what I thought.
THE MAYOR: I think the impasse, Mr. Carsel, is really
on the matter of time and a half; isn't that a legitimate
question?
MR. CARSEL: We might decide it is fifteen minutes
or a half hour, or a minimum of one hour, in that kind of
context. I don't know.' It is certainly subject to
negotiation. 'We have been negotiating that kind of thing for
weeks.
THE MAYOR: 'Thank you. Mr. Fitzpatrick?
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MR. FITZPATRICK: Nothing.
THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller, anything further?
MR. MILLER: NO.
THE MAYOR: Councilman Gurnee made a statement;
do you wish to embellish on it?
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: I made my statement.
THE MAYOR: All right. Councilman Norris?
COUNCILMAN NORRIS: on several occasions you indicated
that you offered 8.68, plus widows, continuance; how much value
does that have? Does that came out here this evening?
MR. MILLER: At present we are at 10.5888 for fire
and police, for the retirement. Under the new actuarial study,
the rate would be 10.314 as I recall it; however, the State
Retirement suggested we continue to pay the 10.5888 because of
adverse disability experience throughout the state, so with
the widows' continuance, your 13.672, you are talking about
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for a combined fire and police department package. So
depending on how you want to argue it, you either deduct the
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10.588 which makes it about 3.48 increase, or you deduct the
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3.18, something of that nature, and so you are talking about
either 3.4 or 3.18 for the widows° continuance.
COUNCILMAN NORRIS: Have you offered them in excess of
all -- 13., including cash of 8.6,.plus?
MR. MILLER: I think it would be something like 126
including. the 8.68 cash. 8.6 and 3.4, you could argue it would
be 11.6..
COUNCILMAN' NORRIS: So you have offered them 11.6% in
the way of mdnetary.increase, and hold the overtime at straight
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time at-a four -hour minimum for court appearances, et cetera?
MR. MILLER: An hour and a half minimum guarantee at
the straight time basis for continuation of the work day, and
if it is authorized by their superior.
COUNCILMAN NORRIS: well, if this is kind of a
summation time, I might indicate that I am impressed with the
salaries that are given to us here currently in effect, and
the salary that they would be moved to, with the increases
being offered. It sounds like that the salary of thirteen,
fifteen, seventeen, nineteen, the twenty -one thousand dollars
plus are in fact good salaries.
it seems to me that this 12% increase is quite a
boost.
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And Councilman Graham asked about other agencies in
the county. I clipped an article out of the paper. It says
the Templeton teachers get 8% and San Luis Coastal teachers get
eight and a half percent. So it looks like for this year we
are offering all our employees in the city, including our
Police Department, quite a cost of living increase in comparison
with what some of the other people in our community are
receiving.
I am certainly in favor of upholding the law, and
as I understand it, we have a Fair'Labors Standards Act in
front of us which specifically says that the City shall pay
-overtime for oiler 60-hours. So we are well within the law
on the present`stand:..:I - feel that the bugs can be worked out
of:.this thing if.we hold fast on the time and a half, because
;certainly the City .is represented with a good negotiating team,
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and I feel the Police Officers' Association is also.
I picked up on the discussion where they said no
other city in the county pays overtime, so we would really be
kind of staying in line with our other neighboring cities,
especially the City of Morro Bay and Grover City, that are
watching our action here this evening.
MR. MILLER: Could I correct that? The other cities
in the county are paying overtimes,CTO times in cash, but-they
are not paying time and a half.
COUNCILMAN NORRIS: That is what I meant. I stand
corrected, in time and a half for overtime.
I picked up out of the discussion this evening
that our police officers receive a higher salary than other
cities in the county, not to mention we do give diem a four -ho
minimum on court appearances,. and an hour and a half minimum
on staying over their shift.
I also picked up out of the discussion that we have 1,
a very superior Police Department, one that we should be proud
of, and I think that we should make note of that also.
So, Mr. Mayor, I will stick with our present
position of authorizing our negotiating team to hold fast on
the time and a half for overtime.
THE MAYOR: Councilman Brown?
OFFICER-MARTIN: Mr. Mayor
THE MAYOR':. '., Officer, we are in summation now,
Mr.! Martin..
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'COUNCILMAN BROWN: Mr. Mayor, I would suggest also
that at the moment 'we' 'do not change our stand.
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THE MAYOR: Councilman Graham?
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Is this the time we are supposed
to discuss this?
THE MAYOR: Summarize.
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Summarize? Well, of course I
think the feeling comes to myself in earlier conversation I
felt that the City has been selective in forming their police
force, and I think we have been rather fortunate in getting
a calibre of people that we do have, and the fact that we pay
a decent salary.
As I mentioned here earlier, I feel that I was
asking a question of what industry has had to do, as to what
the Teachers' Association have had to do, as what we have had
to do on the State•level, and Mr. Norris alluded to it, that
they have actually had to face up to the cost of living
standard which is centered around the figure of eight point
something, but I mean it stuck around, they have stuck around
that figure. Everybody's budgets are such that they have had
to go to the bare bones-level and really see what they can do,
and I can in business, I see inflation all around us, and to me
this is an inflationary request. And I don't like to look at
it that way, but I feel this is the way it is. The fact that
we are givingat this point a flat ten percent, I feel is an
• Adequate'increase.`.It is above, and we are trying to join in
with the survs!V ciiies7aad trying to level off, upgrade our
level of pay and all our benefits that actually we are getting.
-So for 'that "reason I feel that we should actually stick with
our guns...as ",-far as what we said in the beginning.
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THE MAYOR: Mr. Miller, I have a question to ask of
When was overtime first started in the City of San Luis
MR. MILLER:. I don't recall. It has been going.on
for a long time. Do you recall, Chief?
CHIEF RODGERS: Overtime? You mean straight time?
MR. MILLER: Yes. You have been here longer than I.
CHIEF RODGERS- It has been going on for about, twelve
years I believe.
MR. MILLER: There was a time I believe when for
instance firemen who were called out for a fire got overtime
because they had volunteers who were also getting paid for
callouts. Then atone time some cities' counsel determined
that fighting the fire was part of the firemen's job, so if
he got called out on an emergency to fight a fire, there was
no overtime, so it began to come back in.
THE MAYOR: The question, I want to be more specific,
has the City, in paying overtime, has it done so in dollars or
CTO?
MR. MILLER: In both.
THE MAYOR: Have we done it in both for roughly that
period of twelve years?
MR. MILLER:` I would say so.
THE MAYOR:! Mr. Miller, just as a kind of a broad type
of.question, when a,new classification of employee is being
considered by the City, how does one arrive at what a legitimate
and fair beginning salary would be?
MR. MILLER: Well, one of the factors of course is
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the relationship to other jobs of similar duties,
responsibilities and hazard in the City structure. And then
we try to take some of our benchmark positions and compare
those with our survey cities to establish a basic level; jobs
that are easily compared, like police officer, fireman,
building inspector, secretary, that type of thing. Then once
you peg your basic framework, then you fit your internal
structure around it and you establish your relationship within
the City, one job to another.
THE MAYOR: Are these salaries in any way determined,
based on the number of hours that may be required to carry out
the duties of that particular job?
MR. MILLER: I think if you take a look at a whole
lot of things, including the insurance packages, the type of
retirement system, the holidays, vacations, things like the
guaranteed minimum for call outs, it is a combination.
I think the League of California Cities are pushing,)
and I believe Governor Reagan is also for a total compensation
approach where every item is figured into the'pay package.
THE MAYOR: Let's harken back beyond the twelve years
that the,Chief spoke of. In establishing relative pay scales
before :overtime was,paid,.by the City, how did one establish
the relative'rank'of.pay that one type of employee got over
another type of employee? Did it in any way have to do with
the amount of time they were expected to put in?
MR. MILLER: I think that as time goes on, you tend
to compare with other cities on. working conditions, as well
as salaries, and to some extent you take these into
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consideration. But I think what most people are concerned
about, if the working conditions are within reason,
reasonably competent, is the dollars that they get to take home.
THE MAYOR: Let me make a wider differentiation. We
are talking about administrative management type of employees
for which the forty -hour week doesn't usually apply. I haven't
noted it to apply,-anyhow. There is a differentiation made
in the pay scale, is there not?
MR. MILLER: That's true.
THE MAYOR: Is that in any way affected by the number
of hours that one might put in, in that type of job?
MR. MILLER: If you take an executive or management
type position and divide the number of hours the person might
usually work, you might get something comparable to somebody
in a lower position, that is true, and with a higher tax bite.
THE 14AYOR: Well, my observation here is that
obviously what we are.talking about.is money. -And on the City
side, there is a tendency to be frugal with it, and on the side
of the employees, obviously the best package that can be put
together for the:police services is understandable, and I think
that the'entire, package has to be considered relative to the
consideration of. -this element, for it seems to me that
initially we- -began at a certain.benchmark that puts salaries
relative to each other by the type'of duty; whether it is
hazard, whether it requires more hours, and over a period of
time..pressures'mount, usually from the employees' side, and
I am -appreciative of',-this, be an employee, myself, that
additional benefits are desired, and they are added and they
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added to the point that I think the number of hours that go
along with the job sometimes is lost sight of, and I would
daresay that the salaries established for police officers
relative to the scale established for other employees of the
City at the beginning had not only the comparison to the
hazards involved in the position, but also with the amount of
time expected to carry out the job of police officer.
To this extent, I would suspect if we were to start
over again, the net salary of a police officer would be
something less than it presently is. To this extent, I think
that the package as a total, that the City has offered to its
various employees' associations is a reasonable one, and I thi
that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak,
with the Fair Labor Practices Act, of which the various police
and firemen associations have lobbied to the higher levels of
government is working for, and it has the roll back from 160
to 158, to 156., to 154, before mandatory time and a half will
be required.
-I .therefore feel that the 109 package relative to
.the packages-that'. are being offered to other employee groups
within the county; and within the State, is a fair one. I wou
say if we were to authorize the negotiating team to open up
the time and a'half• #-and all other things being equal, I would
not agree to a settlement of 109. It would have to be less.
I think under the circumstances, the effort that
has -been made by"the City to'recognize the occasional overtime
required by court appearances and by the need to stay and fill
out a report, and the minimum time periods that have been
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established are maybe in some instances not fully compensatory,
I think go a long way in approaching the time and a half if the
study would shoo they were done.
So to summarize, I think that taking all of these
points into consideration and not appreciating fully the
argument of the Police Officers' Association, rather than to
reopen the negotiations for themselves, that I prefer to stick'
the agreement reached by the negotiating team for the City.
All right. What is the pleasure of the Council
on the impasse item?
COUNCILMAN GURNEE: I would move to direct the staff
to negotiate with respect to issue time and a half overtime
after a forty -hour work week.
THE MAYOR: Is there a second to Mr. Gurnee's motion?
That motion dies.for a lack of a second.
Is there another motion?
MR. GRAHAM: I would move that we accept the
negotiating team's go -ahead to negotiate on the level that they
have been of the 10 %, with no time and a half, except the
conditions; that `are Federally handed down, such as January
ist,. I believe it ' 's .
y.
•.•MR..MILLER:' Over 60 hours.
•COUNCILMAN GRAHAM: Over 60 hours.
THE MAYOR: Is there a second?
-COUNCILMAN BROWN: S second that.
THE MAYOR: The motion has been made and seconded.
Any further discussion? All right. May we have a roll call,
please?
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MR. FITZPATRICK:
Mr. Graham?
COUNCILMAN GRAHAM:
Aye.
.MR. FITZPATRICK:
Mr. Brown?
COUNCILMAN BROWN:
Aye.
MR. FITZPATRICK:
Mr. Gurnee?
COUNCILMAN GURNEE:
No.
MR. FITZPATRICK:
Mr. Norris?
COUNCILMAN NORRIS:
Aye.
MR. FITZPATRICK:
Mayor Schwartz?
THE MAYOR.: Aye..
I know this is
going to be disappointing for some,
but this will be the position of Council at this time.
MR. CARSEL: Thank
you, Mr. Mayor. I would like to
thank you and the Council.
We will go back to the Police
Association and be in contact with the negotiating team. Thank
you for your consideration.
(This matter concluded at 8:20 o'clock p.m.)
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